Author Topic: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock  (Read 14829 times)

JimK

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Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« on: April 11, 2012, 04:26:36 PM »
The frame lock showed up in today's mail, the lock that I bought for our teenager's bike, the bike that we're planning for him to ride on the Erie Canal ride in July and then on campus when he goes to college in the fall. When we visited campus a couple weeks ago, I saw a lot of half-decent bikes locked up everywhere with cheap cable locks. I asked one of the students who gave a presentation at the Engineering Open House about bike thefts and he said it wasn't a big problem. We shall see! But a lock that you can't really lose, I figure that might help!

Here's the lock, on 1/5 inch graph paper:



This is Version: NKR with mount CL. It gets mounted with a couple stiff plastic straps:



These straps have ridges along the inside but it's a threaded plug that catches them. There's a screwdriver slot in the plug so you can tighten or loosen the straps easily. The plug is relatively soft plastic though - not sure how many cycles of screwdriver application the thing will endure, but I expect they won't be going anywhere.

Here's the lock mounted:



That's a Jamis Trail X1 bike from maybe two years ago. I just put on the Planet Bike Hardcore 60 mm fenders. The tires are Schwalbe Marathon Dureme 50-559.

I was trying to imagine this lock down at the chainstays, Dan: I think the big trouble will be the clearance between the chainrings and the wheel. Anyway, with the graph paper picture, you could probably make a cardboard cut-out and test the clearances!
 

Danneaux

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 06:22:50 PM »
Jim,

Wow! You've done an outstanding job photographing the new lock, and placing it on graph paper was inspired. Are those 1/4" squares? Even better than measuring, I can copy the photo to one of my graphics applications and scale it to full-size in printing, cut out the picture, and hold it in place to check clearances. Next-best to having the lock on-hand, but not as secure.  ;)

After all this, may I impose with another measuring question? Please, could you tell me:
a) How thick is the lock itself?
b) How thick is the lock (when mounted) from the surface of the seatstay?
c) Where does the key go? Is it located on the right side as we view the lock on the graph paper? If so, that might be problematic in clearing the chainrings as well.

What I am trying to do is check clearances between the top of my chainstay and the bottom of my front derailleur so I can see if it is possible to mount the lock there (the conventional seatstay location is out for me, thanks to interference with the Zefal HPX pump, and I think there I may be just shy of the clearance needed to mount it to the v-brake bosses on a separate bracket...I don't think it would clear my forward rack mounting tangs).

Best, and all thanks for the great job you've already done!

Dan.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 07:08:37 PM by Danneaux »

JimK

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2012, 02:21:20 AM »
Here are some more shots that should address your questions, Dan.

Looking at the lock width-wise:



Here is the key in the lock



and here is the key almost all the way out of the lock:


Danneaux

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 02:58:23 AM »
Jim,

This is just terrific; I've been sprawled on the livingroom floor the last half-hour with a to-scale cutout of the lock, trying it in various places. I surely appreciate your efforts, and this latest is icing on the cake!

In your photos, could the lock have been moved down, nearer the tire? I'm guessing the inside edges have caught on the edges of the fender and that is what is limiting movement.  Also, it appears you did indeed get the model with the removable key, which I would also need if the lock is to clear the chainrings in use.

Man, it's going to be tight. If it makes it, it'll just...oh, drat. I was measuring with the derailleur on the outer chainring. I just realized that and moved it to the inside ring and there went my clearance 'cos the derailleur not only moves in, but down as well. Oh...man. Well, I haven't given up yet; I'll have to approach this from a different angle.

On a side note...Jim? The plastic mounting blocks look about a gnat's eyelash away from the tire sidewall. Are they really that close, or is it the camera angle? I suspect it's the angle, 'cos I don't see how they would extend in any further than the metal bracket part of the lock.

I sure appreciate your patience and the terrific photos and measurements, Jim; thanks!

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 08:47:07 AM by Danneaux »

JimK

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 03:37:37 AM »
could the lock have been moved down, nearer the tire? I'm guessing the inside edges have caught on the edges of the fender and that is what is limiting movement. 

I think I could have moved the lock down - I don't think I was hitting any constraint in that dimension. I will take another look and report back - probably tomorrow.

Also, it appears you did indeed get the model with the removable key, which I would also need if the lock is to clear the chainrings in use.

Seems this CL mount only comes with the removable key.

the derailleur not only moves in, but down as well.

Yeah, that is a tight spot. But it sure would be cool if the lock could actually fit there!

On a side note...Jim? The plastic mounting blocks look about a gnat's eyelash away from the tire sidewall. Are they really that close, or is it the camera angle? I suspect it's the angle, 'cos I don't see how they would extend in any further than the metal bracket part of the lock.

The camera angle does make it look bad. But the mounting blocks are a bit tighter than the lock proper.... at least the way I have it mounted, but I don't see any other way. The strap goes around the seat stay. The end that comes around the outside of the seat stay, that end passes through the slot in the lock and then through the mounting block that's connected to the other end of the strap. That end of the strap had come around the inside of the seat stay, and between the inner edge of the lock and the tire.

As I recall, the inner edges of those mounting blocks are about a finger's width away from the tire. I can try to get a measurement on that tomorrow.

The straps and blocks are only going to narrow the gap by a mm or two on either side. You can see that the lock itself is not at its narrowest at the level of the slots that the straps go through. So it seems the straps/blocks will not add any significant further restriction to the width of the tire that the lock can handle.

JimK

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 07:52:32 PM »
I think I could have moved the lock down - I don't think I was hitting any constraint in that dimension. I will take another look and report back - probably tomorrow.

Looking again, I would say I have the lock mounted about as far away from the wheel as possible. It looks quite free to move right down to the fender.

As I recall, the inner edges of those mounting blocks are about a finger's width away from the tire.

It looks like about 6 or 7 mm between the mounting block and the tire.

So it seems the straps/blocks will not add any significant further restriction to the width of the tire that the lock can handle.

Again, looking more carefully, I would say that the mounting blocks did end up a little narrower than the mouth of the lock, by about 2 mm on each side.


Danneaux

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 08:04:16 PM »
Thank you Jim, for all the additional. Clearances and such are devilishly hard to figure without a lock in-hand to try, but your efforts have made it possible for me to go as far as possible without the expense of buying one to try -- and then possibly having to return it. Really nice of you!

I have another idea or two in mind that may yet make it possible to mount one of these ring-locks to the chainstays. I'll keep you updated as things progress.

All the best,

Dan.

slim

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 11:48:22 PM »
Dan,

You are probably aware of this but in case you aren't:

There are 3 models of Abus Amparo with different mounting options:

    LH for simple mount on seatstays
    SP for simple mount on multi-wall
    CL for mount on seatstays with included universal clamps

Amongst other places they are available at  Bike24

https://www.bike24.net/1.php?content=8;navigation=1;menu=1000,5,74;product=13654

The Abus web site talks about the "New dimensions." It also identifies the models that do and don't permit key removal.

http://www.abus.de/us/main.asp?ScreenLang=us&select=0104b04&artikel=4003318375620

Cheers

Danneaux

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2012, 01:04:51 AM »
Chris,

Thank so much; yes, this is helpful. I think the big problem in fitting will be vertical clearance between the lock (when mounted on the seatstays) and the bottom of the derailleur. With that in mind, I did a survey of the locks offered by Abus last night, and see many of the lower-end ones lack plastic cladding. That makes them thinner. Looking at the higher-end models, I wondered if it might be possible to remove at least part of the plastic overlay where there were clearance issues.

Ever heard the old saying, "To the man with a hammer, the world is a nail"? Well, Danneaux has a Dremel Moto-Tool, a high-speed die-cutter with carbide spiral cutters, and various carbide chop saws and an electric bandsaw, so little around here is safe for long.

There are three mounting locations I am considering:

1) I would of course prefer to put the lock in the usual place on the seatstays. There's various reasons including the fact that water would run down and off it there, and it also places it physically higher so any plug-in cable is also higher and so is less likely to be cut using the ground to support a set of bolt cutters.  The trouble is, I've got a Zefal HPX pump mounted on the Thorn-supplied beg there, and the pump would almost certainly interfere with the mounted lock. As it is, I have to spin the pump handle so it is offset a bit to clear the fender atop the 2.0 Duremes. It touches the fender, but only lightly embosses it so no problem. I'd hate to abandon the pump in favor of the lock.

2) So, next on the list of options would be to mount the ring-lock on the rear v-brake bosses. This might just work, but if it does, clearance will be really tight. I don't think I would truly know for sure until I mounted it, but it appears the top of the lock wouldn't clear the underside of my Surly Nice Rack stays. The Surly rack is height-adjustable, but that changes the clearance at the stays very little. I would still consider it, though I would be happier if the lock lived inside the rear triangle rather than outside it.

3) That leaves me with a possible chainstay mount. It puts an attached cable low, but it also puts the lock's weight low, and that is bound to lower the center of gravity. Key to putting it there is getting the lock as far as possible toward the fender/tire, and also it needs to clear the derailleur. Unfortunately, this location (atop the chainstays) puts the key on the right side. I think it might be possible to get the key in and out alright if the chain was on the middle or large chainring. It is just possible the lock could be mounted beneath the chainstays. This would appear to solve all clearance issues, and the key would be on the left side where it wouldn't interfere with anything. The problem is it is also outside the rear triangle in that location. The reason this concerns me is it appears the only thing really securing the bike is the plastic zip-tiey things that locate the lock. Cut those or saw through them, and the bike is free...except for the lock going flipp-floppy beneath the rear wheel. That's solved by dropping the rear wheel, but then the thief has to carry the rest of the bike. Looking at it from Andre's point of view, this would stop most thieves who have any sense. Trouble is, our thieves here'bouts aren't so rational, and would probably make off with all they could take away.

The eventual goal would be to mount a ring-lock and use it with an attachable cable to secure the bike to itself and to an immovable object while in a market or grocery while on-tour. The front of the bike would use Atomic22 3D security bolts on the steerer cap (in my case, securing The Plug2) and on the front hub (SON28 dynohub). This means the front wheel can't be taken and the fork and wheel cannot be readily removed, along with The Plug2. If I needed more security, I could always place the U-lock in my rack pack. I live in Eugene, and often make the 108mi/174km round trip to Corvallis and Albany, and it is nice to stop for a meal midway. Like Eugene, Corvallis is a uni/college town, and bike theft is rampant. It has generally taken me about 10-12 minutes to properly lock my bike and remove theft-prone items before I can go in to eat, watching it through the window. Off comes the rack pack, computer, GPS, pump, and bottles, as well as the Click-Stand. Then, the front wheel comes off, and is secured to the rear stay and an immovable object with the U-lock. A cable goes through the saddle rails, and then I can eat, reversing the process when I get out. It finally got to be so much hassle, I developed the Pocket Kitchen ( http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3850.msg16915#msg16915 )and ate rehydrated soup in the park. I have the notion a set of Atomic22 3D fasteners and the ring-lock/cable idea might streamline things a bit while on a fully-loaded tour.

Thanks for the help, guys; very much appreciated. I'll keep plugging away here, and see what I can come up with. Any and all suggestions are welcome!

Best,

Dan.

JimK

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2012, 01:27:29 AM »
Yeah, if somebody cut those plastic straps, which is easy enough to do, then the wheel could be removed. Of course, somebody could just pick up the bike and cart it off without bothering to remove the wheel.

So the attached chain or cable is important to obstruct such thievery. I got a cable for our teenager's bike. On the Amparo, the cable plugs right into the knob that one slides to open or close the lock.

I think what's important isn't so much that the lock itself in inside the triangle (seat tube, seat stay, chain stay) but that the cable passes through it. So one possibility would be to mount the lock below the chainstays and then when you lock it you'd just run the cable from the lock up between the chainstays and then out through the triangle.

The official auxiliary cables / chains are nice but really you can use any cable & just pass the lock's sliding hasp through the cable's loop.

Danneaux

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2012, 01:47:53 AM »
Quote
The official auxiliary cables / chains are nice but really you can use any cable & just pass the lock's sliding hasp through the cable's loop.
Jim,

I was wondering about this. From what I could see in photos, the "official" attachable cables for some of the ring-locks simply plug-in to the lock at one end. The other end terminates in a loop. The cable passes around a fixed object and back through the loop before being fixed to the ring-lock. You make a really good point; so long as the lock is looped around the rim/tire...and so long as the cable passes inside the rear triangle...then it should be secure even if the plastic lock mounts were cut.

I guess when one thinks about it, it is only the plastic mounts that keep the lock in place anyway, anywhere. All they have to do is resist the forward motion of the wheel (or resist one spoke against the lock bar). Being able to lock an ordinary cable through the lock tang opens up lots of possibilities. I hadn't thought there'd be enough clearance between the lock tang and rim to manage it, but another look at your photos shows it would be fine.

Thanks!

Thinking cap on and overheating, Dan.

il padrone

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2012, 04:11:48 AM »
I live in Eugene, and often make the 108mi/174km round trip to Corvallis and Albany, and it is nice to stop for a meal midway. Like Eugene, Corvallis is a uni/college town, and bike theft is rampant. It has generally taken me about 10-12 minutes to properly lock my bike and remove theft-prone items before I can go in to eat, watching it through the window. Off comes the rack pack, computer, GPS, pump, and bottles, as well as the Click-Stand. Then, the front wheel comes off, and is secured to the rear stay and an immovable object with the U-lock. A cable goes through the saddle rails, and then I can eat, reversing the process when I get out. It finally got to be so much hassle,
If it's a regular thing you do, I'd be having a word with the cafe proprietor to let you leave the bike in a more secure location - his rear yard, or even somewhere inside. As a regular paying customer it will be in his interest to help you out.


I use pitlocks with this wheel lock as well BTW. Then even if the thief disconnects the lock from the frame, it's not going to help him in any way.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 04:14:59 AM by il padrone »

rualexander

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2012, 10:38:13 AM »
Dan,
I wonder if the Kabrus alarm lock might be an alternative to this style of lock which might solve some of your fitting problems?
There is a good review and discussion of the lock on the ctc forum here.

JimK

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 02:42:20 PM »
Just to round out the picture a bit more, here are a couple shots of the lock with the auxiliary cable:




Danneaux

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Re: Abus Amparo 4850 Frame Lock
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 06:47:10 PM »
Pete, Rual, Jim,

Thanks, gentlemen, for your kind and patient responses to my lock-fitting dilemma. I am moving forward in trying to get a solution, but will have to back-burner it today (business-of-life stuff, and hopefully a long-fast Sherpa ride squeezed in).

In my mind, I am coming to a place where the ring-lock looks ideal. Even moreso with the attached cable as you showed, Jim. That would be ideal while on-tour and fully loaded; otherwise, it is awfully hard to get the loaded bike close enough to capture properly with the u-lock. Yes, and with wheel locks as you described, Pete -- those prevent losses at the front end, and prevent removal of the rear wheel even if the lock is located outside the rear triangle. Excellent.

And of course, Rual, that Kabrus really gets the creative juices flowing. Looked at one way it really is a sort of giant ring-lock, and offers additional mounting possibilities. I hadn't heard if it, so your tip is especially welcome. I always enjoy learning about new things, so this is all grist for my mill. It could also replace my separate, add-on alarm.

I'm putting a lot of thought into this, and hopefully will be able to find just the right solution for Sherpa. I never thought simple fitment would prove such a challenge!

All the best,

Dan.