Author Topic: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad  (Read 4172 times)

dbrown

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AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« on: October 23, 2012, 10:21:42 PM »
I am interested in fitting an AXA Defender RL to my new Nomad MkII, although want to check first whether it will fit onto my 540L size frame. I already have a Topeak Mountain Morph pump attached behind my seat tube, Schwalbe Dureme tyres and SKS P55 mudguards, so space is very limited. Judging by the images posted of others' bikes with this lock, I don't think it will fit with my current setup, but any advice is appreciated.

I am specifically looking for the 'height' of the top section of the lock where the key inserts, and how far it extends away from the mudguard when fitted. Also the width of this section (from side to side, as opposed to the thickness front to back), as my D-lock also attaches to the seat tube, resting on the left side of the bike beside the chain and seat stays, and thus may also interfere with the Defender. I have looked though other posts on this forum discussing this lock, and this http://www.dutchbikebits.com/image/cache/data/100_6763-500x500.jpg image at dutchbikebits, but none seem to offer the dimensions I am after.

I have attached a picture of my setup in this location to make it clearer. With a small-sized frame, I am finding it quite a challenge to fit all the accessories that I would like without them interfering with one another or the mechanism of the bike. The end of my D-lock for instance sits between my chainstay and crank with only a 1-2mm gap either side! It works, although it means I cannot lower it any further should I need to accommodate the Defender.

Thanks,
Danny

Danneaux

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2012, 03:26:48 AM »
Hi Danny!

I have managed to transfer my AXA Defender from Sherpa to my size 590M Nomad Mk2, and have detailed the process here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg23851#msg23851 I am thrilled with the outcome and simply delighted with the lock. It has worked beautifully and is a fully-integrated part of the bike. It provides real peace of mind against a snatch-and-grab theft while I am near the bike, and the AXA plug-in cable is a nice supplement to my Kryptonite U-lock when I do need to leave the bike briefly.

Adapting the lock to Sherpa was pretty straightforward, thanks to the AXA ATB mount (basically, a couple of plastic standoffs, two vinyl-coated "cup hooks", two toothed lock-washers, and a couple nuts). The "cup hooks" wrapped around the stays and the nuts engage the threaded ends to clamp the lock to the stays. I especially liked the standoff provided by the ATB mount's molded plastic blocks; they make it easy to floss out any dirt and debris that gets between the lock and seatstays and prevents the lock from abrading the paint.

It is not as easy or straightforward to adapt the lock to the Nomad because the Nomad's seatstays are larger in diameter and farther apart. I sent for several of AXA's worm-drive band-type mounting kits and after more than three hours of effort with each, gave up and simply modified the ATB cup-hook mounting kit. I am extremely pleased with the the results detailed in the link above.

Danny, in comparing your setup to mine, I think things are encouraging for a fit on your own Nomad. Let's take them each in turn...

1) You have a smaller frame. This may well present clearance problems, so let's return to this in just a bit.
2) I have my Zefal HPX2 frame pump mounted behind the seat tube and have clearance, but my frame is larger than yours.
3) I am also running 26x2.0 Schwalbe Dureme tires, and have found they pass the lock opening nicely and clear the lock when mounted to the frame.

Once again, Danny your photograph is superb for giving an idea of clearances and -- boy! -- there isn't much, due to your smaller frame. I *think* you might be able to pull it off if you rotate your Topeak Mountain Morph a bit in its mounts so the attachment hose is on the side rather than the rear. You might even need to rotate the pump's zip-tied mounting bracket slightly to the right. If this works, clearances will be awfully tight, and the point of conflict will indeed be between the top of the Defender and the head/handle of the pump. If the pump could be relocated, I think the AXA Defender would fit with no clearance issues.

If you can't relocate the pump, adjusting the lock downward toward the mudguard would free up a bit of room as well. Currently, I have mine set with about 3.5mm above the rear mudguard, and it could be lowered so it is in contact, gaining that much room. I do think you'll have to be prepared to use and modify the AXA ATB mount and mill and reshape the plastic spacer blocks to get everything to fit, but if you decide to go through with it, I'm happy to provide measurements and suggestions. It helps to have a small drum sander and either a high-speed die-grinder or a Dremel Moto-Tool, but the job could also be accomplished with a sharp hobby knife, some sandpaper wrapped around a wooden dowel, and patience. Basically, the plastic seatstay "claspers" have to be removed, then the radius of the spacer blocks needs to be opened to match the larger diameter of the Nomad's seatstays, and the blocks thinned by 3mm each. The cup-hooks need to be opened to match the larger diameter stays, then the ends covered with a couple short sleeves of heat-shrink tubing. You can see the parts before I modified them here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1944.0;attach=1435 Once I figured out what needed doing, the actual work went quickly.

I'm 8 hours behind you, and it is now pitch-dark at 19:22, so I will need to wait till tomorrow to get accurate photos and measurements for you; black-on-black needs more light for the details you need. In the meantime, you may wish to make an exact-size paper model; it is easy to photo-scale in most graphic applications if you have an onscreen ruler in the program. I did that myself, as detailed here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4148.msg18944#msg18944 Except for thickness, it really helps to see where things interfere. A nice photo of the AXA Defender appears here: https://www.amsterdambikesusa.com/faq/axa-defender-rl-silver-dimensions/ JimK helped generously in my own search for a ringlock, and referenced a very similar photo here:  http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1944.0;attach=1435

If you find the AXA Defender simply won't fit, the Abus Amparo 4850 might. JimK thoughtfully provided a scalable photo in this thread: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4148.0 Both JimK and Pete (Il Padrone) have the Abus Amparo 4850 on their Nomad Mk2s, and it has worked well for them. I prefer the AXA for reasons detailed here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1944.msg19634#msg19634 , but it is just a matter of preference for my own needs; the Abus is a very fine lock.

Hope this helps. Photos tomorrow.

All the best,

Dan.

dbrown

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2012, 08:19:57 PM »
Thanks for that Dan. I had read through your posts on attaching the Defender to both your Sherpa and Nomad, which is why I was hopeful that I would be able to add it to my own setup. Like you, I was sold on the convenience of the ring locks during a tour through Belgium and the Netherlands last month - the easy and carefree way with which the locals left their bikes outside while visiting the shops made my brother and I rather jealous as we struggled with the whole rigamarole of releasing my D-lock, strategically positioning the bike, fiddling about with cables, etc. Admittedly most of these were basic town bikes, so probably less of a target for thieves than my Nomad, but still I felt that a ring lock would be extremely useful at those 'paranoid' times when I want/need to leave my bike for a moment but have neither the time and/or inclination to locate a suitable place to lock it. I had also used these on rented bikes in India and other places, and indeed found them mighty convenient.

This was also why I was confident about it fitting with my tyres and mudguards, I just realised that clearance with the pump and D-lock would probably be an issue. I have attached a picture of my bike with my D-lock attached, so that you can get an idea of clearances here as well. While I would like to keep the pump where it is, it is not essential, and I suppose I could always move it under the down tube. I just felt that it was 'out of the way' behind the seat tube - less easier to snatch, less likely to get muddy, and -  to my mind at least - more aesthetically pleasing. The D-lock however may present more of an issue, and there are few other locations that it will fit.

I will try and print off a paper model tomorrow at work. I made some rough calculations of the probable outer dimensions judging by the offered internal dimensions, but knowing these for certain will of course be more reliable.

I am prepared to make adjustments to the mounting kit if necessary, and thank you for offering to help with this. I do not own any of the power tools you mention - could attachments be located for a regular drill or would this not be powerful enough? I do however have hand tools, and a lot of the other quality you mention - patience.

One other thing - with your tyre and mudguard setup, do you think a Kryptonite Kryptoflex cable would fit through the ring while engaged? I already own a 7ft cable so figured I might be able to use this as an alternative to buying an additional plug-in one. I also thought that this would give me the flexibility of using this with my D-lock as well when on tour if I wished, which I could not do with the plug-in.

Danny

JimK

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2012, 11:02:55 PM »
Both JimK and Pete (Il Padrone) have the Abus Amparo 4850 on their Nomad Mk2s,

I put the Abus on the teenager's Jamis X1, which was quite straightforward. I use a Kryptonite U-lock with my Nomad.

Danneaux

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2012, 03:45:33 AM »
Hi Danny!

The rainy weather cooperated with a brief flash of sunshine late this afternoon and I jumped on it to get some detailed photos of the AXA Defender dimensions and gaps you need. This also gave me the opportunity to drag out the calipers and dividers (any excuse will do!) so I was able to get some accurate measurements of the mounted lock that should prove helpful.

In your original post, you mentioned...
Quote
I am specifically looking for the 'height' of the top section of the lock where the key inserts, and how far it extends away from the mudguard when fitted. Also the width of this section (from side to side, as opposed to the thickness front to back)

I think I have you covered there, Danny. Rather than repeat the measurements here in text, I've marked-up the photos I took and I think they will show the needed measurements most clearly. Do note: The lock is 3.5mm above the mudguard, and could easily be lowered to where it contacts the mudguard. I wanted to leave a bit of extra clearance to avoid contact between the two and to allow future adjustments for clearance if necessary.

Looking at your latest photo with the D-lock in place makes me a bit less hopeful there will also be room for the AXA Defender. It is going to be very, very tight, and I think the point of contact will be between the D-lock and the sides of the AXA ring-lock. Your present setup looks so very neat and tidy and well thought-out, it seems a shame to change it, but moving things a bit would free some space. It is possible you could get by on the pump by simply rotating it so the service hose is located on the right side or possibly rotating the mounting bracket slightly to the right. The D-lock is another matter. The 2-dimensional nature of a photo makes it hard to see how far from the top of the ring-lock it might be, but hopefully after making the paper pattern and seeing my marked photos, it will show the needed lateral clearance; I hope so.

I know aesthetics come into play (do for me, anyway), but might it be possible to place the D-lock somewhere along the top-tube? Forum member Elemer took a tour through Italy in May 2011 ( http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3840.0 ) and posted his photos on Picasa here: https://picasaweb.google.com/114978085559413581485/FromLjubljanaToRomeJourneyOfMySherpa?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKujpLq8uuajRA&feat=directlink If you look closely, you can see he very cleverly mounted his D-lock on his downtube near the lower headset cup, where it remains handy to deploy and it doesn't look bad. It might be worth a look if you truly have to relocate yours to fit a ring-lock elsewhere. Could your pump go beneath the chainstay or inside the chainstay? I've seen some mounted there that looked surprisingly good. If the seatpost is extended sufficiently, could the pump be moved upward from its present location? Is it possible to get a bracket to co-locate the pump alongside one of your bottle cages?

I do believe the necessary modifications to the AXA ATB lock mount can be made nicely and with professional results using a regular drill (and inexpensive sanding drum) and hand tools (pliers or vise-/mole-grips, several grades of sandpaper wrapped around a suitably-sized dowel, some nippers and a sharp craft knife or a small fine-toothed hand saw perhaps just more use of the sandpaper) and large quantities of patience. I am happy to provide the needed dimensions if you wish to give it a try.

I do hope this information will help you mount the lock. If it falls short in that task, it still might help you disqualify this lock in good heart, knowing for sure that it just won't fit in the available space.

You also asked...
Quote
One other thing - with your tyre and mudguard setup, do you think a Kryptonite Kryptoflex cable would fit through the ring while engaged?

Yes, Danny, I do believe it would. I fit my largest cable -- 10mm outside diameter with protective vinyl coating (8mm stainless core) -- and it was easily captured by the ring-lock's tang; there was plenty of room for a cable a couple millimeters larger to fit between the lock tang and the Rigida Andra (photo 4 below). Remember, another 3.5mm could be freed up if my lock was mounted lower. I usually employ the AXA Defender's lock tang to capture my Ortlieb panniers' anti-theft tethers when parked on tour.

If you need more measurements, let me know.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 03:53:55 AM by Danneaux »

dbrown

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2012, 12:25:38 AM »
Hi Dan

Glad I could give you an excuse to whip the calipers out, but thank you anyway - the pictures were once again excellent and very helpful.

I was happy to see that the lock was actually smaller than I had anticipated, and it doesn't look like the pump will be a problem - it should just fit with it in its present position, and if I rotate the hose it will easily clear it. It is just the corner of the D-lock which is a problem - the space between it and the bottom of the chainstay is only 15mm - and your dimensions show a combined size of 30mm for the thickness of the lock and the mounting blocks. The EZ-bracket for the Abus D-lock offers a lot of flexibility however, and I think I may be able to work around this. I have been tinkering around this weekend, and I can manage to swing the rear end of the D-lock outwards by rotating it ever so slightly in its bracket, giving me some extra lateral space. The D-lock may then be able to rest on the outside of the Defender. Failing this, there should be a number of other options for mounting the D-lock from the seat tube, albeit less neatly. Thanks for the suggestions and links for alternative locations, but mounting from the top tube simply isn't an option with such a small frame. It only just provides enough space within the triangle for my two bottle cages and bottles, as you will see in the attached picture.

Would you therefore be so kind as to provide another couple of measurements? Namely the width of the lock at the widest point, and the distance between the side of the mudguard and the outermost edge of the lock, if that makes sense? I am pretty confident I can get this to work somehow, but it'd be great if I can do so with just minor adjustments to my current setup.

Thanks again
Danny

Danneaux

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2012, 01:36:28 AM »
Quote
Glad I could give you an excuse to whip the calipers out, but thank you anyway - the pictures were once again excellent and very helpful.
Hi Danny! Terrific...sounds like we're on the way toward a successful fitment...
Quote
...mounting [the D-lock] from the top tube simply isn't an option with such a small frame. It only just provides enough space within the triangle for my two bottle cages and bottles, as you will see in the attached picture.
Ah, yes; I see. My! It surely is a tidy setup, overall. You've done a very nice job on it, Danny!
Quote
Would you therefore be so kind as to provide another couple of measurements?
Of course!
Quote
Namely the width of the lock at the widest point
My calipers show 141.5mm, measuring to the outermost possible dimension for the lock width overall at its widest point. The lock cover is slightly lens-shape so this is its full extent.
Quote
..and the distance between the side of the mudguard and the outermost edge of the lock, if that makes sense?
This is a little harder to measure accurately, but repeated efforts all come out to 40mm on each side, when measured from the outer edge of the mudguard to the outermost edge of the lock in a direct line, parallel to the ground. My Nomad is equipped with SKS P55 mudguards.
Quote
I am pretty confident I can get this to work somehow, but it'd be great if I can do so with just minor adjustments to my current setup.
Oh, yes, and this is the most encouraging news to date.
Quote
...your dimensions show a combined size of 30mm for the thickness of the lock and the mounting blocks.
<nods> Yes -- but remember, this is *after* the blocks have been milled-down to 3mm thickness between the lock and the seatstay. The original mounting blocks are thicker, *and* don't match the diameter of the Nomad's larger seatstays, which at that point measure a full 19mm. That's also the size you'll need to carve or grind out of the blocks...the radius of the 19mm diameter. The trick is to keep sanding/grinding/carving evenly until the remainder is 3mm thick for the entire length of the block. At that point, if you have also enlarged the radius of the cup hooks *just* enough to slip over the seatstays, the threaded ends of those hooks will just fully engage the nut and toothed lockwasher on the forward side of the lock...and still allow the plastic covers to snap fully into place for a neat and tidy hiding of the mounting hardware on the forward face of the lock.

Re-radiusing and thinning the blocks serves a couple purposes:
1) Matches the block contour to the larger Nomad seatstays.
2) Ensures the cup hook threads will extend far enough through the blocks for the nuts and toothed lockwashers to capture fully. The Nomad's stays are too large to allow this otherwise.

I've attached a composite photo below, showing the needed modifications. The side wings and claspers must be removed from the blocks red lines). The blocks must then be radiused on a 19mm diameter so 3mm in thickness remains at the bottom of the trough (aqua lines)

I would strongly suggest a double layer of heat-shrink tubing over the ends of the cup hooks. The nuts engaging them need to be tightened just enough to keep the lock from "clocking" on its mounts when the key releases the lock tang under spring tension. If it is loose, then there is a risk it will either "walk" down the seatstay eventually or grind on the paint. Adequately tight, and there's no problem. I'm fussy about such things; it really is okay when tightened properly and won't damage the stays or paint if you take these precautions.

I sure hope this works for you, Danny. If you run into any trouble or have any further questions, give a shout. I'd love to see the completed lock all mounted on your Nomad!

All the best,

Dan.

Andre Jute

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2012, 03:43:39 AM »
Never mind the ring lock. I'll take the callipers, inside, outside, depth, width, thickness, hole size and one, second from the right, I don't even recognise.

Mo' toys for boys!

Andre Jute

Danneaux

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2012, 04:41:11 AM »
Quote
...second from the right, I don't even recognise.
Hi Andre! I figured you'd like seeing these. That's a shirt-pocket rule where the pocket clip serves to make it a vernier caliper -- and a pretty accurate one, thanks to some very close tolerances and precision manufacture. Used properly it will also measure depth and perform step measurement. I have been very pleased with my calipers and use them whenever the opportunity presents itself (thanks, Danny).

Starrett make good stuff, including: http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-measuring-tools/calipers-dividers-trammels/Calipers-And-Dividers#itemsPerPage=24&currentPage=1&displayMode=grid&sortBy=none/asc
...and...
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-measuring-tools/depth-gages/vernier-rule-depth-gages#itemsPerPage=24&currentPage=1&displayMode=grid&sortBy=none/asc

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 04:44:44 AM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2012, 03:56:16 PM »
Thanks for the links, Dan. Great just to know the names of the various instruments. -- Andre Jute

Danneaux

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2012, 09:39:07 PM »
Andre,

Since you enjoy precision tools as much as I do, I thought you might also like to see these -- my maternal grandfather's ("Poppy's") drafting and measuring tools. Made of German silver, he bought them in 1903 for the then-handsome sum of USD$28 -- the equivalent of USD$690.03 in 2011 inflation-adjusted dollars.

Good tools are a cheap investment that can easily last a couple lifetimes with care.

Though my measuring tools have become a little more high-tech and I now do most of my drafting work in AutoCad, it's still a thrill and challenge to use these, especially with India ink...there's no do-overs with that! Over the years, I've come to appreciate Poppy's talents more and more, and these are a touchstone to some precious memories. Unfortunately, he's gone now, having passed away at age 94 in 1979, the year after he gave them to me on graduating high school.

All the best,

Dan. (...sometimes tools are more than tools; they're time machines as well)

Andre Jute

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2012, 12:03:21 AM »
Thanks for sharing, Dan. I'm not surprised that those drafting tools cost the present equivalent of $700 in 1903. They are clearly superb. -- Andre Jute

dbrown

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 11:19:00 PM »
Thanks Dan... and success! My original idea of resting the D-lock beside the ring lock was never going to work, there was far too little space. I have rotated the D-lock however and managed to free up just enough space to fit the Defender. It is actually a better position for the D-lock as it is even closer to the bike and thus less chance of catching it when pedalling. So come payday I will be ordering the lock and will certainly post pictures to show how it goes. If anyone else is having problems with space and have one of these Abus locks, I would highly recommend the EZ bracket as it allows so many options in mounting the lock. And it holds it SOLID.

And got to concur with Andre, the calipers do look great, as do the drafting tools. I am only just beginning to put together my own workshop, so don't have the experience with any of these that you two obviously do, but a good set is certainly on my list for the future. Nice to have a story behind your tools as well - my grandfather is currently 82, and I often have a root through his shed eyeing up his collection! I think it gives him satisfaction to know that I will continue to put them to good use once he is gone. And all a far cry from the throwaway cultural period we are currently living through.

Danny

Danneaux

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 12:45:03 AM »
Quote
Thanks Dan... and success!...I have rotated the D-lock however and managed to free up just enough space to fit the Defender....come payday I will be ordering the lock and will certainly post pictures to show how it goes.
Wonderful news, Danny; well done at your end!

That info about the Abus D-lock mounting bracket will be a real help to others in future, I'm sure.

Thinking about how to make it easier to contour the AXA ATB mounting blocks...your frame is smaller than mine, and it is possible Andy Blance selected smaller diameter seatstays for yours than for mine, so be sure to check first. It would be terrific if the blocks fit without need for modification; they snapped right onto my smaller Sherpa stays with no mods at all.

If your Nomad Mk2's stays are the same as mine, then 19mm is essentially .75in (0.748), so if you have an old pipe or wooden dowel in that dimension and some coarse-to-fine sandpaper selections, you could wrap a section of sandpaper on the pipe or dowel and then draw the block lengthwise. Would be a lot easier and faster than trying to go 'round and 'round if you're using only hands and hand tools. The block plastic is hard and pretty heat resistant wrt grinding operations, and any swarf* can be removed by hand or a sharp knife or single-edged razor blade as needed while working.

Feel free to give a shout if you develop any questions along the way!

All the best,

Dan.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarf

Andre Jute

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Re: AXA Defender RL dimensions - for fitting on a Nomad
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2012, 04:15:41 AM »
If anyone else is having problems with space and have one of these Abus locks, I would highly recommend the EZ bracket as it allows so many options in mounting the lock. And it holds it SOLID.

Hi, Danny. I mounted my EZ bracket, which as you say holds the D-lock solidly (mine extended the platform for my saddlebag!), on the seat tube quite high up, and at an angle so the lock is vertical but its width reaches back past the rack, nothing forward to interfere with my legs. But the main reason I mounted it where my hand could fall on the release is that I use my Abus Granit 54X  like a three-pound hammer on impertinent Range Rovers, just clicking it out and swinging it up into their panels or glass if they come to within two feet of me. That lock clip is a truly superior piece of engineering!

Andre Jute